[Compcomm] [Fwd: Re: The Next Step]

[Will Farrington]

On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 21:42 -0500, Matthew Swaringen wrote:
> Your comparison is more than a bit of exaggeration.  The move plugin
> allows a basic function that is present in every window manager from
> ages ago.  AJAX Quick reply is a feature that many people don't even
> care about right now.  It's more like the tile plugin.   I find the
> tile plugin very useful, but I wouldn't not use a WM based solely on
> lacking this one feature.  And I wouldn't buy a WM for the one feature
> either if there was a free WM available, that might eventually have
> similar or passable features.
> 
I guess simplified posting is too much to ask from a forum.

> Again, I'd be using windows in cases like this if I always went for
> what has more features.  If you combine it with the OS software
> available for it you'd be hard pressed to convince most people that
> linux offers more features for them.   Linux might offer more features
> to developers or server admins, but by and large the reason that
> people use linux is because they support it's goals more than those of
> microsoft.
> 
I use Linux because it _is_ the best OS for my needs. Not because I hate
proprietary software. I listen to MP3s and I use Photoshop at school.
I'm not a terrible person for doing so.

> I'm not saying vbulletin is made by a company like microsoft, but the
> mindset against proprietary software in general is for good reason.
> It's not evil, but it is "less than ideal" IMO.  If more people didn't
> use vbulletin and switched to supporting phpbb3 with the same dollars
> and/or time they are now putting towards vbulletin I wonder where we'd
> be at now.  
> 
Politics and personal ideologies have no place in a serious discussion
about the technical merits of a software. Sorry.

> Will Farrington wrote: 
> > On Tue, 2007-04-24 at 08:28 -0400, nesl247 wrote:
> >   
> > > For $160 if I remember correctly, vB is definitely not worth it.
> > > phpBB3 isn't gold yet, so of course it's not going to have a release
> > > immediately, but I haven't heard of any security vulnerabilities yet
> > > either.
> > >     
> > 
> >   
> > > And of course vB can afford to put out a fix immediately, their
> > > getting paid to! phpBB usually does within a day or so if it's major.
> > > So phpBB is definitely not slow in development.
> > > 
> > >     
> > phpBB3 doesn't always get security patches in 24 hours. Or even 48
> > hours. Or even 72 hours.
> > 
> > Furthermore, anyone who's followed development of phpBB3, which is STILL
> > less fully-featured than vBulletin 3.5.x (which was released well over a
> > year and a half ago), can attest to the pace of development in the phpBB
> > project.
> > 
> > They still don't even have simple things like AJAX Quick Reply or Quick
> > Edit included.
> > 
> >   
> > > And really, you're going to base the decision based on AJAX stuff?
> > >     
> > 
> > Some of those are important features that severely increase usability.
> > So, yeah.
> > 
> > I mean, I wouldn't tell David he should ship Compiz sans the Move
> > plugin, now would I?
> > 
> >   
> > > I
> > > gurantee you phpBB3 will have a mod for it shortly after it's
> > > released.
> > >     
> > 
> > Yes, because an infinitely less maintainable and more complicated forum
> > that will need near constant attention is a great start!
> > 
> >   
> > > As far as the plugin system for vB, while it might be nice,
> > > it still requires manual edits.
> > >     
> > 
> > There are all of a handful of plugins that will require one to edit the
> > source code (because hooks are not yet implemented for the files in
> > question). Every other plugin either has a simple one-click-installation
> > that is _guaranteed_ to work, or, a few template changes need made
> > (vBulletin stores templates in the database, so it's not hacking on the
> > source).
> > 
> > Installing any plugin in vB, especially large ones (for example the
> > iTrader selling/buying/trading rating system), is far quicker, easier,
> > and more easily-maintained.
> > 
> >   
> > > So it's not _much_ better than phpBB3.
> > >     
> > 
> > Um, yeah, it is. =)
> > 
> >   
> > > And upgrading phpBB3 is quite simple. They release code changes, that
> > > you manually apply if you have mods.
> > >     
> > 
> > As opposed to simply copying the new files over the existing ones and
> > running an upgrade script.
> > 
> > Let's see... hours of hacking files on the server, OR, a simple upload
> > and a few clicks.
> > 
> > Well - gee, I just _can't_ decide which one I'd prefer!
> > 
> >   
> > > So it makes editing a modded
> > > forum easily.
> > >     
> > 
> > Easy for a coder, yeah. Still a huge, massive, monstrous waste of
> > valuable time: I assume you, and RYX, and everyone else has a life just
> > like me. I can't spend 8 or 12 hours on random maintenance chores for
> > the forum. I've got homework, various bands, and time with my friends
> > that need time too.
> > 
> >   
> > > I've got enough experience with it, having modded forums
> > > with 200+ mods before, all working 100%.
> > >     
> > 
> > As have I. And you know as well as I do that the time investment is
> > ridiculously, and needlessly, large.
> > 
> >   
> > > And if I'm correct, there have been a few people who stated they've
> > > seen an improvement when using phpBB3 over vB in terms of performance,
> > > and vB is a known resource hog anyways.
> > >     
> > 
> > When you cut out the useful AJAX features, of course loading time will
> > improve. Javascript doesn't exactly load instantly.
> > 
> >   
> > > And extensibility, that's definitely a winner for phpBB 2 and 3.
> > > They're both easily modded.
> > >     
> > 
> > You're right - one-click-installation and _maybe_ a minute editing a
> > template is pretty difficult compared to manually editing a variety of
> > the source files. So glad you corrected me on that! *roll eyes*
> > 
> >   
> > > If you don't believe me, go look at
> > > Categories Hierarchy. It basically rewrote a lot of phpBB2's code
> > > because it wasn't at it's best, yet it's a mod. I highly doubt you can
> > > do that in a vB "plugin".
> > >     
> > 
> > Well vBulletin doesn't require an _extremely_ extensive hack at the
> > source (just look at the diff between it and vanilla phpBB to see what I
> > mean - it's a fuckin huge hack) to implement something as simple as
> > subforums: it prefers to have them part of the package from the get-go.
> > 
> > 
> >   
> > > "reported posts, built-in warnings & infractions system" Well, sorry
> > > to burst your bubble, but phpBB3 has this also.
> > >     
> > 
> > Not anywhere near as usable or strong. I'm not going to go off on a
> > tangent here, but I'm sure if you looked around the vB forums, there's a
> > post detailing some of the many features vB's Warnings and Infractions
> > system has to offer that just make it absolutely amazing.
> > 
> >   
> > > And for those who administrate the boards, phpBB3's permission and
> > > overall ACP is just a better system. It's a lot less confusing, and a
> > > lot better organized.
> > >     
> > 
> > I disagree. phpBB3 sets _every_ single thing differently.
> > 
> > vBulletin, on the other hand, uses a very scalar system that's based on
> > the concept of inheritance from the parent forum or category which is a
> > lot more maintainable, and if thought about for a few seconds, actually
> > makes a lot more sense. The cases where it would be a nuisance are
> > minimal at best (How often would you _actually_ want a person to be a
> > moderator of a given forum but not one of its subforums? Subforums are
> > usually derivatives of the parent forum, so isn't the moderator in this
> > hypothetical situation already dealing with the same topic range of
> > posts?)
> > 
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   
> 
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