[Compcomm] [Re: The Next Step]

[Will Farrington]

On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 23:53 +0200, RYX wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, den 25.04.2007, 16:35 -0400 schrieb Will Farrington:
> > On Wed, 2007-04-25 at 13:57 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > > Taking the risk to repeat myself, I will quote myself :D ... Either my
> > > previous mail didn't make it through or this is another case of simply
> > > ignoring important arguments in favor of a salesman-show ...
> > 
> > Because yours and Alex's posts are so much better than a
> > "salesman-show"?
> No, because you do nothing but sum up the reasons why vB is "better"
> than phpBB - which is obvious, it is a commercial product. You have no
> real reason why we need vB instead of phpBB, what benefits it really
> gives us over phpBB and why we just can't go with an open-source
> solution. 

Why must it be an "open-source solution"? Why can't we make this
decision without mucking about in personal ideologies, or are we going
to be so close-minded (that same thing we accuse companies of) as to be
all-or-nothing open-source zealots?

Zealotry _is_ detrimental.

> > 
> > > What benefit does it give ANYONE, if the forum-software is NOT chosen in
> > > a way to ensure we have people working on it and help improving it?
> > 
> > You seem to be of the belief that you and Alex would be completely
> > incapable in all forms of helping to maintain the vBulletin forum.
> > 
> > That's not true at all.
> As my following statement should make clear - I don't want to be (or
> become) capable of managing a proprietary piece of software I am not
> using otherwise. This has indeed nothing to do with incapability, more
> with reasonable unwillingess.

Sounds like zealotry to me.

> > 
> > > Why is it so difficult to let the professionals, long time
> > > web-developers and php-coders who are offering to "care and code" (and
> > > already proved to be able to do so in form of the beryl/compiz forums)
> > > let have the say in this decisison - especially since they agree with
> > > the community's majority-vote?
> > 
> > Because your word as a web developer and a php coder is automatically
> > more pertinent and relevant than my word as a web developer and
> > php-coder (in addition to my long and varied experience with the forum
> > softwares in question)?
> This is the first time you mention to be a web-developer and php-coder.
> But still, it's one dev and one admin against the rest of devs and the
> rest of the community - still seems not really convincing to me.

The only other developers are... you and Alex. Of the two of you, the
only one with _any_ experience with more than one forum software is
Alex. So, I count 1 against 1.

And no, it is not the first time I've mentioned that. I don't know how
"I've owned, maintained, and administrated a wide variety of forums on
various software, including phpBB2, phpBB3 ..." didn't make it clear
that I know what I'm doing in regards to this. "Maintaining" is an
especially clear flag about it.

> > 
> > > What benefit does it give the community (or anyone) if the
> > > forum-software is chosen in a way that all professional web-devs refuse
> > > to work on it because it is not free and open? Will, are you alone going
> > > to write plugins, create the themes, integrate the forum with the rest
> > > of the site - whenever there are any things to do? I doubt.
> > 
> > Writing plugins is unnecessary for a rather large margin of tasks.
> > There's a whole site that works in conjunction with vBulletin called
> > vBulletin.org where vB users post plugins.
> > 
> > As for theming vBulletin, it's not difficult and it's not as if we'll be
> > changing the theme every week.
> Can you promise that? It looks like we are going to create a whole new
> project every 4 months throughout this year ... correct me if I am
> wrong, but that's the plan afaik.

Being snarky won't get much done in any of the current or "future"
projects.

> > 
> > > Again: This has _nothing_ to do with emotion - it is pure logic. I don't
> > > see the smallest reason or motivation to work on a commercial piece of
> > > software if I don't get a cent paid for it and I won't be able to re-use
> > > what I learned.
> > 
> > Some of us think that doing the best thing for the project and giving
> > our time is enough.
> Yes, of course - some of us are the new messiah :D :D ... It would be
> wonderful if those "some of us" wouldn't think they have the ultimate
> knowledge of what is "the best thing" - even though the whole rest of
> the community thinks different.

It'd be awesome if "some of us" would not use an extremely unapplicable
but untruthful hyperbole to even try to make a point.

It'd also be awesome if "some of us" knew what the word 'compromise'
means.

It'd be even more awesome if "some of us" will realize that of anyone on
the mailing list, they've been the least open to any change, and have
been the most vocal in regards to "the way things must be".

Frankly, Rico, whereas I've no qualms working with Alex, and Guillame,
and the others, from day 1, it has seemed to me that you have some
opinion that has led you to believe that in regards to the management of
the web-based assets of this project, that it is Your Way or the
Highway.

> 
> > 
> > > If I work on free software, I feel good to just
> > > contribute without getting paid and learn a lot.
> > 
> > You can learn from closed source software too. I learned a lot about web
> > design with Photoshop.
> That's like comparing a bottle of milk with a leather-jacket ... You
> learned about the topic in general - that has nothing to do with
> Photoshop. You can't work on Photoshop's sourcecode and can't learn how
> the cool plugins and effects are coded. You will not be able to port the
> layer-styles system from PS to the gimp.

Well you can look at the vBulletin source code too. It just so happens
you can't take what they've written and use it to write your own
software.

> Also you seem to think I see commercial software as "the devil" - that's
> nonsense.

No it's not. You refused to work on a proprietary software earlier based
on nothing but the fact that it's not open-source. That's zealotry.

> I just use open-source whenever possible, even if it means
> that I have to do some tweaking or wait a while until everything works
> correctly. 

I'm a fan of pragmatism, myself.

> That's the spirit of open-source. We are not running a
> company here, we are a free project - don't forget that.

I'm a fan of pragmatism here. We're a project. We have needs. We pick
the software that satisfies them best - not the software we hope will
one day satisfy them best.

> > 
> > > That's maybe not
> > > understandable for non-developers, otherwise we wouldn't have to argue
> > > about something so obvious ...
> > 
> > You seem to have blatantly ignored where I've not only ran and
> > maintained more sites than I could remember to list, but that you're not
> > the only person who knows anything about PHP on this Mailing List.
> I never said that. I only said that phpBB works well and there is no
> need to use closed-source software (yes, irony - php is never closed
> source and so on ... you know what I mean).

What you've done is try to force your personal ideologies into the lives
of every current and future Compiz and Beryl forum poster as a result.

> > 
> > > (Sorry for repeating me but this discussion is done with a very false
> > > argumentation - but of course, only the OSS-fans are acting emotional
> > > and for their own morality ;) ...)
> > 
> > Requesting a decision sans moral interference is not a stance based in
> > morality.
> Everything is based on some kind of morality. Or would you recommend
> producing t-shirts in chinese sweatshops because it is cheaper - no
> matter if they let 10 year old children work 14 hours a day for 2$ a
> month?

Logically speaking, outsourcing production in such a way only makes
sense. Realistically speaking, your company's public relations would be
entirely awful among the industrialized world, and as such, your sales
would suffer. For the same amount of money you make by being able to pay
less, you'd lose in actual customers (and more).

> Open-source has a lot to do with idealism and loyalty to its idea - you
> can't just ignore that, it's a part of the whole.

I'm not disloyal to open-source software. There is room in the
open-source software scene for a pragmatic approach to things. It's just
that zealots like to talk till they get blue in the face trying to
convince everyone that there's only one way to support open-source
software. Sounds pretty close-minded rather than idealistic to me.

> > 
> > As for false argumentation... anyone has yet to actually show where
> > phpBB3 is technically superior to vBulletin in terms of maintainability,
> > security, or extensibility.
> This proves that you absolutely don't get the point in what everyone
> (Quinn, cyberorg, nesl247, ...) is trying to say. Nobody said that phpBB
> is superior or better - most likely it isn't, because it is a free
> project without big money. But it is absolutely ok for us and our needs.

I seem to be the only who has made any arguments about the actual needs
of the community. They've all said that phpBB fills the site's needs,
but I've argued many cases in which it is not. What have they offered to
refute it other than more personal ideologies?

> We have no need for any more features than phpBB (or other
> OSS-alternatives) can provide, you are the only one who likes and
> promotes vBulletin.

By that logic, we have no need for a graphical server so we might as
well stop using X11 and just go back to a CLI.